The SWU Podcast LIVE | 08/11/18 | The Star Wars Underworld

Friday, November 9, 2018

The SWU Podcast LIVE | 08/11/18

Posted by Dominic Jones on 11/09/2018 8 comments

NEW CASSIAN ANDOR LIVE ACTION SERIES ANNOUNCED! On this episode, Dominic, Ben, and Chris discuss the news that Diego Luna will be returning as Cassian Andor for a new live action Star Wars series coming to Disney+. They speculate about what the plot could be, what other characters from Rogue One (and beyond) could show up, and what this could mean for future live action story telling. Plus, they revisit the question of what should happen to Kylo Ren in Episode IX, discuss the possibility of Ron Howard making another Star Wars movie, and speculate about the future direction of the franchise. All this and much more!

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8 comments:

Unknown said...

November 10, 2018 at 1:35 AM

Unknown said...

November 10, 2018 at 1:56 AM

Unknown said...

No one is against retcons by their very nature, heck Batman's origin is arguably a retcon, Uncle Ben being the one to say the power line - retcon, Vader being luke's father -retcon, the entire winter soldier character for Bucky - retcon.
Canon nerds want good stories just like everybody else, they just enjoy justifying sources with one another, which can often enhance a story. I mean for instance if Lucas had not retconed Vader and instead pretended this was always the case, not only would Luke's shock be gone, but even if he didn't know, the sense of horror that the man he looked up to was really a lie would not be present. Canon is WHY that moment works.
People can consume and prioritize their star wars however they want, and most importantly it is canon fans who are the ones who care the most about making everything fit and about making the best story. They don't just go "um actually" they say "oh this trek novel and this other one give different names for Romulus' capital?" well then since there is a time passage lets do world building around the idea that regime changes led to a different name. AG Stalingrad to Volgograd.
I really disliked the K2 comic, there was no sense that the writer had a story they wanted to tell. I am 100% ok with them changing that, not cause I think "ha I want to see people who keep track of canon feel bad" but cause as a person who loves lore, and enjoys talking to the canon chroniclers - I want to see them retcon meh stories with better ones.
Retcons are the very lifeblood of canon. They are what make for good lore and stories. They can suck to be sure, but at the end of the day people who love canon are the ones who encourage retcons. Like I said, otherwise why support the legends divide if you feel that canon should only matter secondarily, why not just overwrite legends as you go?
Sorry for the rant but that is a massive pet peeve of mine and I feel people misrepresent/ flat out bully parts of the fandom based on the very few worst case examples (which dont even apply here). Like the Poe and Rey meeting, most canon fans liked the addition and felt the one in the novelization was worth replacing with something else. Removing the comic IS something that people who are stringent about canon want as much as anyone else, let's not treat them like they don't care about stories. You don't have to pick and chose between continuity and good stories.

Sorry bout the 2 posts on that one 2 min conversation, but I think it is something worth always bringing up cause I think people need to give the benefit of the doubt to that part of the fandom. Still adore the conversation itself, just wanna give my two cents

November 10, 2018 at 1:57 AM

Unknown said...

"they wont lie to their investors.....or at least you would hope they would not". Lol yeah that would be insider trading right? If they lied to the investors that would be some bantha poodoo to be sure.

The call makes me curious about Solo merch sales. I know with TRU gone now, and the lack of time they had to market the toys things are not looking good on that front. This may be another reason they will make sure to space out the films and keep em for the end of the year. if the boost in toy sales is middle of the years and no one is properly hyped then less money is getting spent. put in near christmas and you got toy sales for days

Ben makes a great point on Spielberg not taking 7. It would be like dating your best friends ex or eidow/widower, the terms they parted on could be great, but it would still be just plain awkward for all parties involved. Maybe one day Steven will direct or produce one though.

I now want all my sarcastic Kylo bashing to be read by Dominic. That was great. Also honestly I really wish they kept the "pretty eyes line" not only was it a good line, but yeah it really drives home Dominics point. I do agree TLJ dealt with that idea, but that is kinda why I dont want Ben redeemed. Rian did a perfect job with that story, that is the one place I more or less side with Chris on when it comes to TLJ feeling like it wrapped up all our loose plot threads. I love that it happened, but that does make he a bit worried we might retread/undo parts of what Rian did so well.

Also on the should SW always be about redemption point, the reason someone like Dryden is different is his story is not one in which we see a chance for redemption/atonement. When we do super evil characters they often fall into the camp of being inhuman monsters for all intents are purposes, or slimy weasels like Hux. I think there is still a need to show someone who is very clearly established to have been a good person once, but fell, and then stayed on the dark side. It is not about "some people are just evil and cannot be redeemed", it is a case of some people just plain choose not to redeem themselves. Kylo has been given his chance, he could have been redeemed, several times now. Despite that, he always chose evil, and I think that is perfectly in line with the saga's theme of redemption. That being that redemption and goodness in general is a choice above all else. Ben was not fated to be evil nor is it impossible for anyone to be redeemed, but by having him refuse that to his bitter end - you drive home just how important redemption is and how corrupting the dark side is.

Ending the saga with someone refusing to turn back and choosing death or imprisonment over admitting wrongdoing could actually make Vader's redemption all the more powerful. Showing just how tough of a choice that was, that dying a hero was so much more rewarding than living as the villain. Thus the redemption is still vital, even with the individual here choosing not to be redeemed

This is not exactly the same thing cause we know going in he will be evil at some point, but I think back to this year's spider-man game and how they handled Doc Ock. They have such a tragic fall for him and while other tragic Ock's have had redemption like the one from SM 2, otto ends the game broken and losing all his resolve. We end with a scene that breaks my heart every single time, one that very firmly drives home ideas of redemption and hope, all the while having a great man turn on everything he stood for and fall utterly.

I don't think that type of story says that people cannot be redeemed or are always going to be evil, but rather says that sometimes people choose not to be redeemed and we have to deal with that emotionally. Does Kylo doubling down on the nazism really not fit with the saga's core themes? Or does it simply drive (get it?) them home with a different result? It is an interesting question to ask, especially with the franchise moving forwards.

November 10, 2018 at 2:57 AM

Unknown said...

I love Dominic and Chris' pitch of Kylo as essentially Palpatine. I want them to drive home Chris' idea of Kylo being more self assured. It would be interesting to see him just tear everything apart in denial over his own flaws. Maybe even do what many thought was the case with Vader's cybernetics, that being that it was a gradual thing. I don't mean make his like vader, just that it would be interesting if he gradually becomes more and more reckless and scarred. Add another sexy eye scar in there, or have him do an even bigger version of the leg thump thing from TFA. That was the moment I fell in love with him as a villain, just how scary the bloody leg thing was, that is part of why I want him to double down, cause there is so much potential in a no holds bar evil Kylo.

Clearly Kylo will continue his crusade to destroy all computer stations.

I LOVE the idea you guys had about both having to destroy the ideology not just the means of the FO, and the idea of Kylo being the inverse of Vader, and thus going farther to the dark, where Vader pulled back.

Like Dominic said, Kylo knew full well who was in that base when he said no prisoners. I think that was very intentionally there to show that at this point he is not going to hesitate. This is part of why I want him to choose to continue to reject redemption, not cause he can't, but cause he would rather be evil, he would rather be self destructive and hold power.

To what Dominic was saying about Kylo wanting to keep his political power not just force power, "betterto reign in hell, than serve in heaven". I think driving home why that ideology is flawed would be to show that reigning in hell is not just lonely, but also amounts to losing control in reality. You may be technically more free, but like Socrates said with the example of the ring of gyges: the just man may still be prisoner to societies rules, but the unjust man would be slave to his base desires due to him having no consequences. In the end the just man has his moral convictions and the knowledge that he can choose them over power, and that is true control and freedom.

November 10, 2018 at 3:48 AM

Unknown said...

Again I just wanna make clear, I am not saying that kylo or his real world equivalents can't change or be redeemed. Like I said in the part of the comment Dominic read, it is a matter of should he be redeemed from a storytelling perspective? Those are quite different things, you can write the Joker for instance, and yet still hold that people are inherently good. Those two things don't need to conflict.

We can show compassion towards people sure, we can try not to hate them, we can hope for them to change, but having them continue to be evil in our stories is not remotely at odds with that. I think Kylo could change, i think there is some good in him, or was. However that does not mean that the trilogy must end with him choosing that good, we can have a capacity for redemption and choose not to be redeemed.

I think Dominic's point about this being more about Rey's reaction is a clearly explanation of my viewpoint; Kylo does not have to, and imo should not be redeemed in episode 9, cause the more interesting and important moral is "we should be like rey who is good, and through that show how she deals with people who are bad".

I think that showing people with a capacity for good continue to be bad is an amazing tool for optimistic stories. I mean heck I think the best case in fiction for that idea is Lex Luthor and Superman. Clark will always always ALWAYS believe that there is good in everybody no matter what. And yet Lex does not redeem himself...I mean ok he has turned good a few times like when new 52 supes died or when he thought he was a clone of the original Luthor but turned evil when he got his memories back...I love comics.

My point is Superman teaches us that even his worst enemy deserves mercy; all the while that person never changes. The best ending for Lex I can think of is all star, in which superman proves that Lex could always have chosen to be a hero, before dying. Lex accepts the death penalty but not before giving info on cloning superman to a good scientist so his work can amount to something good without him even reaping the benefits.

But even without that, the moral Superman teaches does not hinge on whether or not Lex turns back. Lex continuing to build death lasers, or (worst of all) steal 40 cakes, that's as many as 4 tens, and that's terrible; does not make that any less powerful. In fact the theme of redemption and mercy works far better, when the hero is unable to redeem the villain. That makes them choosing mercy all the more heroic. Batman saves the Joker not cause he thinks he will actually do anything productive in his life, but cause he values the life of others above all else.

Honestly Kylo is Gollum
It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment."

Had to bring it all back to LOTR , your welcome. Seriously though love the discussion

November 10, 2018 at 3:48 AM

Unknown said...

Hey so sorry for another comment, but I have a question/topic idea: what do you think the future of serious animation in theaters is for Star Wars? What I mean by that is animated films with the intent of being put out in theaters, as well as not being something like turning one of the lost clone wars arcs into a film. The west sadly has a lack of dedicated animation by big studios and franchises beyond the major studios that make family films. That is not to dissuade Pixar and Disney and their peers, just that you never see something like an animated historical fiction film set in the Napoleonic era, or even a theatrical animated film from major franchises. Even franchises with a chance for mass market appeal like Batman and Superman are afraid to take that risk.

Look at Batman Mask of the Phantasm, that was building off the success for The Animated Series and partway through the studio chose to shift it to theatrical with only half a year left in production. They also did not market it at all and so the film flopped cause few theaters showed it, and fewer people knew about it. It is a critical success and honestly more mature than any of the 90s Batman live action films. It could be seen by the TAS child and ten audience, and still be breathtaking for adults. Despite all the reasons it would have worked had WB not shot themselves in the foot, we have not really seen animated theatrical releases save for fathom event screenings for some of the direct to dvd films, but those are select locations and still not made for theaters.

Now this december into the spider-verse is going to take that risk again. it looks amazing, it is being marketed well, and perhaps may bring more serious (not serious as in dark of violent just serious as in intended to be theatrical and full length) animated genre films in theaters. Btw Lord and Miller are heading that film so just keep that in mind if Star Wars looks at that film as a success.

So depending on that test what do you guys think we will see from Star Wars in theatrical animation? I love family animated films, but part of me laments that we don't have that wide range of genre with "serious" animation that Japan does. Where is our Miyazaki I mean the man is a major inspiration for more than just Filoni, he is someone Spielberg is inspired by heavily. So what are the chances of the experimentation and boundary pushing franchise of Star Wars attempting to bring serious genre animation to the west in theaters? On top of that, what form do you think that would take? Like is there even a chance of like the Boba Fett script being turned into an animated film? I don't mean that actual event, but rather just a story of that importance and likely maturity that does not fit the "traditional" animated build in the west, getting made?

Sorry for the confusing wording there at the end, but it is a hard thing to explain given how terms like "mature and serious" are used to deride anything that is less than R in a lot of western culture.

November 10, 2018 at 4:44 AM

Unknown said...

November 10, 2018 at 4:59 AM

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Friday, November 9, 2018

The SWU Podcast LIVE | 08/11/18

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