Welcome to the 5th edition of our “5 on 5” Star Wars Roundtable! This week’s panelists include Kyle, Darryl, Blaine, and Sean from the massive Star Wars Geeks group on Facebook, and Ben from the Star Wars Underworld. Our topic this week is The Jedi Order.
1) Obi-Wan, Yoda, or Mace Windu: Who was most blind to Anakin’s downfall?
Kyle: Obi-Wan for sure. He was the closest to him, yet he never really was able to see this coming. He had his doubts with lines like "Why do I get the feeling you'll be the death of me?" to Anakin, but I still don't know if really got it until it was too late in episode III (Of course none of them got it until it was too late, but you know). Yoda and Windu kept trying to test him and were very suspicious to his relationship with Palpatine, but not enough obviously lol. I go Obi-Wan.
Darryl: No brainer. Mace and Yoda both expressed reservations on more than one occasion. Obi Wan was the starry-eyed idealist who couldn't see beyond what Anakin's potential was. He confirmed as much in the OT as well.
Blaine: Mace, definitely. Obi-Wan spent his time trying to control Anakin, trying to keep his temper in check. Why you would even throw him in as an option is beyond me. Yoda counsels him, knows the darkness inside him. Of all the Council members, he is most familiar with how he works. Mace, however, knew he was strange, but did nothing to convince the others of such.
Sean: Obi-Wan was. He loved Anakin so much he didn't want to see the fact that he was fighting his urge to figure out through the force to save Padme. That is also why I fell that he couldn't truly destroy him after their battle and walked away after he poured his heart out by telling him how much he loved him as a brother.
Ben: All three are at fault. Everyone knew Anakin's past and his struggle with the loss of his Mother. Obi-Wan, being as close as he was to Anakin, takes most of the blame. But I really find it hard to believe he was blind to what was going on. I think he knew the whole time Anakin and Padme were married, but he knew if he exposed them it could ruin their lives and his relationship with them. When he asks Padme, "Anakin is the Father, isn't he?" it didn't sound like he had just put the pieces together. Because of this I think he blamed himself for what happened.
2) “The Dark Side clouds everything” Yoda said. Does this have a range? Couldn’t the Jedi see more clearly while on Kashyyk or out on the Outer Rim?
Kyle: Now I have never thought of it like that. It's a very good point, but I don't think it does have a range. I mean Darth Vader is able to force choke halfway across the galaxy (I know, maybe not that far, but you get my point). I believe Palpatine got so close to the Jedi that he was able to implant this "Dark Side Clouding" thing into their thought process and mind. also, the way Vader speaks of the Force in A New Hope and the way it's portrayed in The Force Unleashed leads me to believe that the Sith could do anything with the Force with enough effort. Again, it's a good point and one of the mysterious of the Force.
Darryl: Where is the Force located? EVERYWHERE, in all things, between them, binding them, etc. How can there be a range in something that's omnipresent? If we buy into the "balance" idiocy (which is apparently not a matter of choice...thanks, GL!), it has to be an overall balance, not a regional one, I would think. Could you imagine if the Force had a base of operations? Imagine it was at the Galactic Core somewhere, and there was an issue on the Outer Rim...too many Sith or something. Can you see the Force grudgingly getting out of its rocking chair, muttering under its breath...hitching up its pants, taking a few steps across the porch, then saying, "Screw it! Too far! Cloud it up, Dark Side" and sitting back down and cracking open a cold one? I think not.
Blaine: Definitely a range. As stated in numerous places, not to mention the non-canon reference in Star Wars: Awakening (see what I did there), it depends upon how bountiful the Force is in a given place. On Tatooine, there isn’t much life, so a Dark Lord could easily cloud the Force. However, on a planet like Yavin or Kashyyyk, with so much plant and semi-/sentient life within just a small radius from any being, the Force is too broad to be blocked.
Sean: The Dark Side Clouds allot of stuff. That is why I believe that Sidous was able hide as long and was able to put his plan in place. and also why the Jedi council was unable to see who he really was until Anakin went to the council chambers and told Windu that he believed that Palapatine was the Sith that they were looking for.
Ben: Obviously not, Palpatine must have been clouding the entire Force all across the galaxy, he's just that good I guess. Who knows if there was any place where the Jedi could go without the wool being pulled over their eyes? But it's interesting that certain Jedi like Pong Krell were able to foresee the coming storm. Was Krell powerful enough to break through Sidious' fog? Or did he find a place of clarity in the Galaxy?
3) Fact or Fiction: The Jedi are “guardians of peace and justice”.
Kyle: Fiction. The Jedi are but one side of the Force while the Sith are another. After reading the Darth Plagueis novel I don't believe the Jedi are guardians of peace, I believe they are just using the Force in a more peaceful way. I find the Jedi stuck up at times and cruel at points in their order. Now I am not saying that the Sith are good in fact they are defiantly evil, but they also try to use the force for good at times and their order seems so much more truthful. I find their order a bit different and confusing at times which is why I feel different about the Jedi because it doesn't make the Jedi look all too good. So no, they are not the keepers of peace, just an order trying to find out about the Force in a more peaceful way.
Darryl: MOSTLY fact. (Damn you and your guidelines! LOL) As Obi Wan said, many things are a matter of your point of view. They FOUGHT for peace, they MANIPULATED to achieve justice. Guided by the Force, I think they are guardians of the outcome, though not necessarily the means.
Blaine: Fact…depending on what era we speak of. Rise of the Empire, they sat on their asses (pardon my French) contemplating the meaning of life, with minimal, if not nonexistent, results. Cold War, Clone Wars, NJO especially. Their main concept was protect the weak in any way, which just so happened to be all-out war. But I suppose, when you think about it, at all times, the Jedi were ready to step into disputes, and prevent people from killing each other. So yeah, true.
Sean: Fact: The Jedi, I believe, go out and try to keep peace throughout the Galaxy and when warranted and pushed that they use force only when peace is not an option.
Ben: This contradiction is all a part of Sidious' plan. They were drug into the Clone Wars to "Fight for peace", thus branding themselves hypocrites. But who can blame them? They knew the Separatists were controlled by the Sith and that it was their duty to destroy them. And with both sides of the war being controlled by Palpatine, negotiations were pointless. In the end the plan was brilliant, it destroyed the Jedi, and their reputation, at the same time.
4) True or False: Luke Skywalker is the greatest Jedi in history.
Kyle: False. What? No.... Yoda was great, but kind of sucked when it came to Episode III and what I hate is how he thought 24/7, didn't get out much, and yet still got defeated after all that thinking. Now Obi-Wan, I would call the greatest Jedi to ever live. He was smart, cunning, knew his limits, had great plans, cared about the Jedi order, cared for the people around him, and of course the hair. So I say Luke was the 2nd best and Yoda comes in 3rd.
Darryl: False. True. False. I don't know!!! Based on the films, I would have to say no, not even close. Any number of Jedi in the PT were superior in a myriad of ways. Based on what I have learned in my limited EU exposure, however, he was muy bombad, and I think that's the consensus we are intended to reach.
Blaine: False. I would have to say that the greatest Jedi would have been the very first, the founder of the Order, whose name escapes me. If you can start a group with this kind of power, and have them able to police themselves, you have to be great. Others of note would be Ulic Qel-Droma, because he directly faced the Dark Side, and turned back on his own, and faced the destruction he had wrought like a man, and all those others who actually DID SOMETHING besides argue with their own kind.
Sean: False, Please do not get me wrong Luke was a great Jedi and he was able to defeat his dad who was the chosen one (Vader Rulz) I want to use this as an example. You have Qui-Gon who was able to manipulate the force which enabled him to come back and speak to Yoda and of course Yoda passed on that knowledge to Obi-Wan so he can speak to him while he was in exile so I believe that yes he did great things as a Jedi There were others that I fell had more knowledge and did greater things than he did.
Ben: True. He was the single reason why Anakin rebuked Vader and brought balance to the Force, he's at least the most important Jedi in history. And he's definitely revered as one of the most powerful Jedi ever, even after recieving what looked to be a week's worth of training. Ending both the Galactic Empire and Jabba the Hutt's life, Rebuilding the Jedi order on his own and becoming the Grand master of it definitely gives him a bit more street cred.
5) Qui-Gon lies, Yoda holds the truth from Luke (twice), and Obi-Wan twists the facts. How trustworthy are the Jedi?
Kyle: Just as trustworthy as the next person. If you want an Order that is trustworthy, go with the Sith. Now I know you may be saying "What? The Sith always plot to kill each other, etc..." but think about it, the Sith tell everything to their padawans, teach them all their secrets, and teach them the whole history of the Sith order. To top it off when the Sith apprentice kills his master, it's accepted and the master complements him on it as he dies. It's how their Order works and why it gets stronger each time a new Sith rises. The Jedi on the other hand as the question stated, are twisted in their ways and are very complex and spread throughout the galaxy. Funny thing is, I am not pro Sith....
Darryl: I'll refer back to question three. Their motivations are consistently for the good. I would trust a Jedi any day of the week for the OUTCOME...but it doesn't mean I would take every word he/she said at face value.
Blaine: Not at all. They are manipulative, and keep to themselves whatever holds most personal benefit. Not much better than the Sith, and much more restrictive. They flirt with the Dark Side more than they would believe, because almost all famed Masters had secret sweethearts, and looked for ways to become stronger. They have no reason to be such, so why would they tell the truth?
Sean: If you look at it that way they are a bunch of lying schmucks. But they might have been doing those things to protect the innocent. Obi-Wan and Yoda were just trying to protect Luke because he was vulnerable in the early stages of his training. Qui-gon mmmm I got nothing.
Ben: Trusting a Jedi could be dangerous, depending on who you are. Obviously telling the truth isn't in the Jedi code. Sometimes They seem to be almost as deceitful as the Sith, but at least they use their fibbing for good. Telling a 19 year old his Dad is the most evil dude in the Galaxy would be quite the bombshell, as well informing him of his long lost sister. But the same can be said of their desire to use less intelligent individuals for their own purposes, via Mind tricks.
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